JE: In the wake of a grim BEA, as the death toll continues to mount in all ranks of the book industry, from writer to editor to indie bookseller, I thought it was high time for all four Three Guys to convene and converse over virtual beers about the state of publishing and the state of books in 2009, as writers, readers, professionals, and consumers. It's fashionable (and not unreasonable) to saddle fiscally irresponsible corporate publishers with the burden of responsibility for the current conditions of book culture. But who else might share the responsibility? I might argue that writers are just as much to blame, that the sentence is killing the novel, that the literati needs to quit cowering in dusty academic circles and engage a larger culture. What do you three guys see as the biggest threat to book culture?
JR: I certainly can point to short attention spans of the common reader. Literary novels, as least the ones I read, don't ever engage the common reader, the man or woman interested in getting emotionally involved in a book between LAX and JFK. There is a certain percentage of readers out there who do like literary novels, but it's less than you'd think. I believe printed books would be dead and buried if it weren't for the big splashy thrillers and kids in peril books that crowd the superstores and airport racks, books as entertainment, books as identifiable substances within your own life. With this in mind it's the gate keepers who are hurting the industry. The agents, the editors, the money men who down size five good employees two days before Christmas when the company fell short of it's %15 profit goal. I look at every catalog of every US publisher and I see 90% commercial tripe. Whether its fiction, genre, or non fiction, it's all based on the lowest common denominator.
FSG didn't even have a booth at BEA this year, they are the premier literary house in the world. Consumers are more interested in reality television then they are intellectual property, and advertisers are forcing the hands of networks by saying this: "real people, when you lock them in a room and promise them money, are far more interesting than any drama you can write, that's what we want to advertise." We're very close to human sacrifice on television. Which speaks to my point about the loss of interest in the common reader, there are too many things offered and going on for them to want to read a book, they'd rather watch some two bit whore shake her ass on television and taunt a dozen sleazy men into loving her than read a book. I know people in my family who haven't read a book since high school, that's brutal. But it's reality. Is this the fault of the writer who scratched, and kicked his way into print, with his own version of reality? Or is it the gatekeepers? When agents and editors don't even respond to a well crafted query letter from a prospective author who is trying to sell a literary novel, then what does that say? Do they know what the public wants to read? If so why are return rates so high? Why are good people losing their jobs every day at Big League Publishers? Where does that thought process come from? Is this why low cost independent publishing has flowered? But even then, there are indie publishers that have their own agenda and exclude people just like big publishers...which makes them no better. They went into margins because they couldn't get access at a wide audience and end up becoming what they ran from.
DH:
JR's post could be unpacked as if it were a Zip file. There's so much in there. Is most of what's published based on an appeal to the lowest common denominator? No, because there are too many different denominators. What I've always loved about publishing as a business is that it allows for the greatest diversity of output. There is a book out there to meet every reader's needs or desires. We live in a country where you can read quilting mysteries...and why shouldn't you if you happen to love quilting? I recently came across a
scrapbooked-themed mystery. I'm gratified that scrapbook hobbyists are finally being covered in the mystery genre. As for readers with short attention spans...it's hard to think of a potential literary reader as having a micro-scaled attention span if they can recall the plots of every episode of Star Trek. Now JR or I could argue that those ST fans would be better off, really more fulfilled, spiritually and mentally, if they devoted their precious time and energy to Spinoza's Ethics or the novels of Jonathan Franzen instead...but that's a matter of persuasion. True cultural authority can't command and it doesn't whinge, it persuades. Blogs can persuade. That's what we're trying to do on Three Guys. We're hoping that if we get excited about a book we might lead some readers to it. We might even be able to teach the more general lesson that you can get excited about a book. That's also what Jonathan is doing when he holds those great book/camping conclaves every summer in the Great Northwest. The downsizing in our business, our cultural enterprise, saddens all of us. Marching around the last BEA...passing by the microscopic Random House booth...be careful, if you blinked you probably missed it...was a reminder of what a deluge we are facing as patterns of distribution change.But don't blame publishing's gatekeepers. Their decisions just reflect the best assessment that they can manage of market conditions. Change the readers...persuade them to be stronger readers, make the blogs their steroids...and the gatekeepers will rise to the occasion since they will have to. Some of them want to...just give them an excuse.
JE: I think the good indie houses-- Soft Skull,
Akashic,
Dzanc, Melville House, Algonquin, Norton, etc-- have the right idea. Dynamite editorial standards, fewer titles, and more author support. And most importantly, they're helping their authors sort out the demand, selling books the old fashioned way-- one book at a time, connecting their authors with readers, generating word of mouth, getting booksellers in on the conversation early. I still believe books made of paper sold in brick and mortar stores can work, if it is done right. As one well known agent anonymously observed in Poets & Writers recently, you don't hear a lot of talk about cutbacks and financial issues at Norton. And little old Soft Skull had their best year ever in 2008! And Algonquin just printed their two millionth copy of Water for Elephants! And how did they do it? By creating buzz with Indie booksellers. And who is they? One rep and one marketing person, basically. And when is the last time you walked into Powell's in Portland? The place is a zoo! It's a destination. Maybe what we need is less published novels and more great novels? Enough with the sentence, already. How about engaging readers with a great story? How about allowing readers to get inside the story, instead of holding them at arms length in the name of literary pretension? Most of the new fiction I read just doesn't feel lived. Period. And it's not compelling because it feels like artifice. It feels crafted, or overworked, or counterfeit. I'm usually all too aware that somebody is writing the damn story. Hell, I'd rather watch Deadwood or Madmen any day of the week than read most new novels. Sorry, but that's the truth. Some of the best writing is going on in cable television, because television has finally learned the benefit of creating a good working environment for writers where film has mostly failed, and publishing has—/ahem/—also come up short in recent decades. Maybe we're losing some of our greatest novelists to the greener pastures of TV? We're certainly losing our readers. Fuck that. I still believe in the novel!
JC: I think you're hitting around the edges of about a half dozen different problems in the industry, all in one tidy rant,
JE. First you have the giants vs the indies - the great small presses are lean operations with a connection to stores and readers. Their list supports their internal structure; whereas for many larger pubs, the publishing has to support an already existent monolithic entity. Indy lists are small, their books are tightly edited and I think they have realistic expectations and directed efforts for each book they release. Don't misunderstand me, the majors publish some great books, and a lot of them - hell, look at the Knopf fall list - it's amazing! I sometimes get the feeling that some pubs have, say, 30 great,
sellable, readable books, and know that won't reach the sales quota they have budgeted for them, so they ask: how many more books do we need to hit our number? 50? 100? More? And they publish those mediocre, derivative, near
plagiaristic books that are a lot like something that was a hit three years ago in hopes that they will get their "number." And if they don't make it, it's the hatchet for someone. It's the money machine, and once you get caught in it, it's hard to get out.
It's hard for a major publisher to be nimble and reactive, with high fixed costs necessitating continued expansion of lists. And you're right about more great novels, too. But don't forget that there are a lot of ways to be a great novel, but even more ways to be a lousy one. The greatest obstacle is getting the right books to the right readers, which of course, is why everyone loves an independent bookstore, a few
Riggios and
Bezos excepted, of course.
JE: Great points. I love that you called me out on my publishing rant,
JC. Like most zealots, I tend toward oversimplification. Here's another one: however many ways there are to write a great novel, they all have one thing in common while you're reading them, at least while I'm
reading them: the experience feels credible, or in some way lived. It doesn't feel written, so much as alive. Too much literary fiction I read feels written to me.
JC: Let's talk about TV and TV writing some more, because I think there is a completely different dynamic to novel writing, in that it is much more intensely collaborative, in contrast to the more solitary novel writer. On a writing staff, you might have the experience of 4 or 6 or
however many very good writers bouncing ideas off each other, one-upping each other, improving each scene. Take a musical perspective, Lennon's
ok, McCartney's
ok, but together they are great, because they have someone to say - that's crap Paul, start over, or try it this way. And don't let Yoko sing, John, please. A few people are Dylan, but even those need an editor. If you don't believe me, give "Mozambique" another listen. Certainly there should be some back-and-forth with a novelist's early readers, and hopefully the editor, but so many books seem to be sloppily edited, waffling on in pointless detours and unreadable prose that I wonder sometimes how many books are published nearly as delivered, after a quick copy edit and a marketing meeting. TV produces about a few hundred new programs per year, depending on how far down the cable ladder you are willing to go. Yet it has the same copycat and quality control problems we complain about in publishing.
JR: Right now I don't think the writing for a novel is much different that what you see on TV. The writers at 'Madmen' have used a simple flashback component to their stories, Don Draper has been running from his past for years, and now it's catching up to him, mostly in his regrets. Novelists that worked on 'The Wire', and that last season had a batch of front running writers with critically praised novels on shelves. I think the beginning middle end, identifying the engine is something that crosses over to novels from television, and editors and agents start to look for that, especially when it entertains. In my experience of trying to market my own novel, that's what I hear. But then John Irving's last novel was 600 pages too long, he is indulgent and self absorbed. I don't think 'Until I Find You' would be published by a first time writer. It goes on tangents that are 200 pages long. No one can get away with that unless your established. I've tried to read 3 novels recently and they are murky at best, I can't get past page 100. Am I suffering from watching too much episodic television? Am I to blame when I look up from the book I'm reading at page 100 and I don't know what's happening or why I should care? Recently I've watched two great shows made in Canada, 'Intelligence', about a drug dealer and his law enforcement counterpart dueling it out, and a
CSI type show called '
Da Vinci's Inquest', which is far more cut and dry than 'Intelligence' (both take place in Vancouver, and Seattle). But there is a pacing to that kind of writing that is missing in novels. You see less
scatter-shot writing in novels today, less fat. When the New Yorker does a profile of Nora Roberts, well...the times for literary novels are tough. I will say this, the slow release of character detail on 'Intelligence' is some of the best writing I've ever seen, it reminds me a lot of Marathon Man,three stories wrapped in one. Which begs the question; "how many stories can be told...before writers just repeat themselves?"
JE: I don't think the problem is that you're watching too much television, JR, I think the problem is that most literary novelists don't create and manage enough tension in their work, something genre writers, and good television writers can't afford to overlook. You've got to have something driving the story besides words and insights and observations and narrative tropes and voice. In order to keep an audience riveted to a story, you must have some form of tension at work constantly. I'm not suggesting that every scene needs to be a confrontation. Most of the tension can involve internal conflict that need never be stated, rather suggested or dictated by a character's situation. Also, I think that among literary novelists there is often a concerted effort to frustrate traditional (Aristotelian) story arcs, which is admirable. The problem is, that after tens of thousands of years, folks process stories a certain way. We respond to rising action, we expect climax and denouement. With West of Here, I tried to frustrate traditional story arcs by playing with time and sequence and dozens of limited points of view, and comics, and even a multi-verse which allowed me to create multiple realities. But in the end, I was totally beholden to the old story elements of rising action, etc. As for the how many stories can you write without repeating yourself question, I can't say. But I can say that I think an expansive writer with self-conscious characters can work the same theme endlessly without repeating themselves.
DH: JR and
JE are playing different language games.
JR's is realism, his "that's the way it is" brings him close to the technical requirements of teleplays with their emphasis on dialogue and action. The best TV can be a toolbox for the serious novelist. Just add the most powerful descriptive skill this side of Mars and you have a good working model for the kind of writing that JR likes and writes himself. Reminds me of Shakespeare. Julius Caesar is a good example. There is an incredible amount of action in Julius Caesar--it's paranormal. Real life doesn't move that fast. (Shakespeare would have written great teleplays.) On the other hand, Shakespeare can also do the kind of interior exploration of character and life's meaning that is alien to how television works. But there is this duality of genre in Shakespeare. Some critics think that in Elizabethan times, Shakespeare was read more than he was performed. Julius Caesar becomes a novel. I suggest you try it sometime. Shakespeare plays make great novels.
JE's language game is idealism: He is playing with our conventional perceptions, our angle of vision. It's altering states...seeing reality as a construct that the writer or reader might be able to bend. It's trying to get inside people's heads. I apologize for using a musical example.
JE reminds me of Brahms; a conservative artist who was highly experimental.
He played with the conventions of composition (
ie. storytelling) a lot. But he always respected those conventions in the end. J's, let me segue to my pet peeve before I stop with my post. I've hinted at it already. It turns out that JR and I have been throwing out the same galleys lately. For two guys who have very different attitudes, it's a wonder that we agree so much. But the "literary" rejects are beside the point. What disappoints me is how little historical and cultural perspective there is in contemporary American fiction. Am I weird because I can tell the difference between Brahms and Wagner or because I know the plot of Antigone? It seems we've moved backward in engaging the rest of the world both in the now and the then. Both Hawthorne and Melville did better, let alone Mark Twain and Henry James. There is such a
McSweeney's-like vogue for being a hot-stuff writer these days. But apparently that attitude doesn't include knowing anything about what has happened farther than two or three feet from your own ass. I stretch the point. I can think of the counter-examples myself...but history and culture are wide and deep...an ocean of story...where are they in American fiction?
JE: DH, you're not weird because you know the plot of Antigone. You're just weird. Who else is going to compare me to Brahms? And can I just say that I think the term "realism" is something of a misnomer? Why do the pessimists get to appropriate reality? Anyway, I've gotta' go pet my bunnies. Anybody have any closing remarks for this week?
JR: I hope the gatekeepers realize that the system their trying to sell into is broken. Hardcovers will soon go away, Harper
Stuido's idea of a 50/50 profit sharing plan will soon take hold, and twitter is not going to save anything. Unpublished authors, no matter how good their writing is have realized that they have to go it alone, and find other outlets for their voices to be heard. The chains are dead, and the deal of "loaning books" that they have with the big NY publishers is about to collapse. James Frey told me that there is room out there for everyone, I disagree...there isn't room out there for what's being published now.
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